tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.comments2011-11-18T09:27:23.340-06:00A Missional ConversationThe Missional Musehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13443849515270072293noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-25760004103657153742011-11-18T09:27:23.340-06:002011-11-18T09:27:23.340-06:00Joe,
I love the response. Your comment on China is...Joe,<br />I love the response. Your comment on China is certainly interesting. As I listened to the debate, I admit it did not sound like they were focusing solely upon the government, but it is definitely a possibility. If the comments were directed at just the despotic form of government, than that would be a different matter that would require more thinking.<br /><br />Also, to your comments on foreign aid, I actually agree with what you said. I've been convinced that helping often hurts (see the book of that title) and am all for reform, careful thinking, etc. Andrea and I are currently rethinking the support we give to organizations and I would want nothing less from any organization I support, including our government. My main reason for including this point in the article was that it was yet another example of the theme of promoting America at the cost of the rest of the world.<br /><br />Finally, I appreciate your comment about Paul. Let me clarify, I have no plans at the present moment of voting for him. He and Huntsman were just the only ones in the debate that seemed respectable to me, solely based on that debate. I do not consider myself to be well informed on the candidates yet, even Obama on the other side. (Which maybe means I shouldn't be writing until I do!).<br /><br />Ironically, I think I might still take Paul's isolationist approach over the exploitative approach I heard in others. Either take an attitude of if we are going to prosper, we (the world) will all prosper together OR the best way for us to all prosper is to do our own thing most of the time, unless extreme circumstances necessitate something different. Now, I should say that I would still prefer the former option and think the latter is perhaps a bit naive and impossible in our day.<br /><br />Finally, I appreciate your comments about patriotism, but I'm not sure it has really helped me figure out what role (if any) the mission of God allows for patriotism. I certainly like our country, being an American, being involved in civic affairs (though minimally), I'm just wondering at this point in my life what my attitude toward these things is to be and how that attitude will interact with my attitude toward God and his kingdom.<br /><br />Anyways, really interesting comments! Thanks for leaving them. I hope you are well and I hope we get to see you and your family soon. It has been too long!The Missional Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13443849515270072293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-21960902098500670032011-11-17T17:18:37.851-06:002011-11-17T17:18:37.851-06:00To begin, I'd like to point out that a desire ...To begin, I'd like to point out that a desire for an evil, despotic government to fail (China, in your example) in no way shows a lack of compassion for the people of those nations. The Chinese government actively oppresses Christians and forces women to have abortions, among many atrocities. the people of that nation would be far better off with that government on the "ash heap of history".<br />Second, I strongly believe that a desire to reduce or temporarily government foreign aid is in no way a heartless or uncaring position. Our government - any government actualy - tends to be terrible in how it handles aid, whether within our borders and without. Waste, mismanagement, corruption, money being handed to corrupt Third-world governments and never reaching the people that desperately need it is the rule, not the exception. Jesus call for love and justice is for the corporate body of christ and the individual member of that body, not the government. Obviously we want our government reflecting our priorities, but why does that require the government's heavy involvement in welfare, foreign aid, and the like? I believe the federal government should provide for the safety of it's people, but leave care and generosity to people who desire to do it and understand what it is they want. Take that money out of the governments hands and put it back in the hands of the people, and you'll see far more generosity and more effective care for the poor than when the government attempts to do it. That's my humble opinion. <br />To address the question of patriotism: we are a part of this nation, and our involvement in the process of government is required and commanded by Jesus. As with any part of a fallen world, it's important to try to engage the best elements of that government. In the process, appreciating what great blessings and opportunities are available to us as a part of a nation with great freedoms is healthy and appropriate. This is a natural result of engaging our culture, redeeming it and using it for His mission.<br />Oh, I find it interesting that one of the only candidates you'd vote for would be Paul, considering he is one of the most strongly isolationist candidates in a long time. <br />If I had more time and energy this might be a more thoughtful and effective response, but as it is, it's a mind-dump response. Not well organized or meant to directly address all your points. :)Joe Moberlynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-77833799140834620272011-09-27T17:06:28.459-05:002011-09-27T17:06:28.459-05:00man. thanks for this post. sobering. ugh. we are ...man. thanks for this post. sobering. ugh. we are the same person. (sorry, to lump you in with me...)bethhttp://www.the6ps.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-12932497632439951382011-09-07T21:54:55.755-05:002011-09-07T21:54:55.755-05:00trialtrialAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-58586586054574177952011-01-18T11:20:56.122-06:002011-01-18T11:20:56.122-06:00Thanks, Tim. I'll definitely look into them.Thanks, Tim. I'll definitely look into them.The Missional Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13443849515270072293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-45291305355646147472011-01-12T23:15:14.228-06:002011-01-12T23:15:14.228-06:00Scott -
You should read Tim Keller's new book...Scott -<br /><br />You should read Tim Keller's new book Generous Justice and his other book that's really old Ministries of Mercy...That is his Phd dissertation on how to implement mercy ministries in the church (care for the poor, etc...) and is really good and pratical.<br /><br />Generous Justice is just a more popular level book arguing that justice is a part of being a Christian.<br /><br />A couple good reads...Tim Spanburgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-30340423748991040942010-08-23T12:39:14.866-05:002010-08-23T12:39:14.866-05:00Look at you, player! "The Purpose-Driven Miss...Look at you, player! "The Purpose-Driven Missional Church." I like it.<br /><br />It strikes me that for all of Paul's direct engagement of the powerful, Peter, John and James seem pretty generally neglectful of the powers that be. This weekend at my attractional church I was struck at how studiously the preacher (pretty good preacher, overall) overlooked the antagonism of James 2:6-7: "Are not the rich oppressing you and dragging you into the courts? Do they not blaspheme the good name of the one you belong to?" Not much reconciliation spilling out of that little two-liner. Of course, the greater context is a rejection of prejudicial treatment, but it seems like there's a more fundamental rejection of the kind of formality that favors the rich and entrenches power in the hands of the powerful, thus perpetuating (and implicitly endorsing) the status quo. The mission, then, takes into account the need of all to be reconciled to the God of love, but also the need for them to be reconciled to one another in ways that are consistent with the family orientation of the kingdom of God. Maybe then "the dream" is better conceived as "a people who, wherever they find themselves, meet hurt and frustration with love, depression and hopelessness with acceptance, confusion with guidance, and discouragement with encouragement." Or something like that. I like yours better than mine, quite frankly. :)David Zimmermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04736122606687383813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-49382971605727318322010-08-18T15:42:05.713-05:002010-08-18T15:42:05.713-05:00Great post Scott. Lots of room for some thinking ...Great post Scott. Lots of room for some thinking being created here I think. Sounds like a strategy for doing community life and maybe a hermeneutic coming to the fore? Looking forward to part 2.Billhttp://evangelicalmonk.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-70837077548301227472010-07-23T10:06:22.473-05:002010-07-23T10:06:22.473-05:00MZ - very good stuff. Thanks for posting. I agre...MZ - very good stuff. Thanks for posting. I agree 100 percent.The Missional Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13443849515270072293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-83071103691901159282010-07-22T01:46:36.087-05:002010-07-22T01:46:36.087-05:00I like it except to say that it could sound like a...I like it except to say that it could sound like a fleet of spiritual paramedics servicing the visibly oppressed. Jesus' discipleship strategy was also to invest heavily in leaders - change the opinion of the opinion makers and you can change the world.<br /><br />In times of genuine introspection I think people honest with themselves admit that even the most successful of people fit the definition of hurting, hopeless etc. Most if not all people have their times of quiet desperation, though the successful rarely let others into their world to realise it. <br /><br />So perhaps a tweak or two to make it more inclusive of even those who are outwardly successful. In other words, don't label the people, but label the condition of the world. <br /><br />"It is the dream of a people who will accept that all of humanity experiences times of hurt, hopelessness, discouragement, depression, frustration and confusion and will seek out and go to them in those times in order to show them love, acceptance, guidance, and encouragement."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-4874352452640731502010-07-21T16:37:15.744-05:002010-07-21T16:37:15.744-05:00And sometimes, maybe more often than not, showing ...And sometimes, maybe more often than not, showing that love, acceptance, guidance and encouragement not from above but alongsideBillhttp://evangelicalmonk.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-63685151652625252192010-07-21T12:56:01.789-05:002010-07-21T12:56:01.789-05:00That is a very powerful shift! I love it!That is a very powerful shift! I love it!Anibellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12705428386570579843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-86811345195406387022010-05-06T10:57:04.650-05:002010-05-06T10:57:04.650-05:00Wow, that is amazing and encouraging. As you may ...Wow, that is amazing and encouraging. As you may know, I blogged on the small group question, following Matthew's sermon - a particularly powerful sermon - as a dear friend approached me on the matter who is still hesitant to join the small group movement and feels intense pressure, now from the pulpit as well as from being asked face-to-face whether has been plugged-in yet, and was considering leaving. I asked my friend to hold on for a bit. It would be a remarkable step to "export" the idea, however, with a reach out to others who are skeptical/fearful - my tongue in cheek idea in the blog post about the group whose members aren't sure they want to join a group - but seems daunting as comfort levels, mission-minded focus with discipleship all in the mix. Kudos!Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677431419254415618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-47352380721990118742010-05-06T09:01:55.408-05:002010-05-06T09:01:55.408-05:00At Adam - agreed on all accounts. Hard to find an...At Adam - agreed on all accounts. Hard to find and possibly harder to do. It will certainly be an interesting discussion and I think a flattened leadership model will be a needed corrective, though I believe we will need to balance the perspective so we don't swing the pendulum to far back to the other side.<br /><br />At Bill - I would love if small groups had group leadership. The 20 somethings group is an experiment in this idea. It is relatively self led with a few people playing different roles on a regular basis and much of the group stepping up to lead meetings, events, etc. We are not completely decentralized, but we do encourage everyone to participate in leadership and their is no one voice giving direction to the group. Lately, I have felt the need for a few stronger voices to emerge to point the group in a good direction, but I am resisting the urge to see what happens.<br /><br />So far, all that is happened is that we have double in size, added bunches of new people, started a second group, had missionaries visit so we could support them, had people who were in jail a short time ago lead our Bible study, and run two retreats without any centralized leadership, truly celebrating the gifts God has given. I'd say the experiment is going pretty well so far!The Missional Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13443849515270072293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-62824879536709449162010-05-05T15:45:21.567-05:002010-05-05T15:45:21.567-05:00"The radical stepping aside of the respondent..."The radical stepping aside of the respondent aforementioned reveals one of the strongest beliefs about leadership in the missional movement: leaders cannot only teach their followers from the pulpit, in the classroom, or through curriculum and Bible studies."<br /><br />Heady stuff. In light of this observation emerging from your interviews, what do you make of the small groups movement at church? It would seem the proposal would necessitate the building up of a number of persons for small group "leadership" in order to more ably develop missional and discipled/discipling small groups?Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15677431419254415618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-68901776486209032862010-05-05T10:29:56.762-05:002010-05-05T10:29:56.762-05:00Interesting stuff.
A flattened hierarchy and ste...Interesting stuff. <br /><br />A flattened hierarchy and stepping aside to truly equip others (even at the cost of an income) aren't easy to find now a days, but I think those will set a powerful example in the future of American Christianity.Adam Lehmanhttp://www.adamlehman.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-80847687327788385272010-05-05T09:57:13.503-05:002010-05-05T09:57:13.503-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Missional Musehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13443849515270072293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-14276759942818286562010-05-05T09:53:21.940-05:002010-05-05T09:53:21.940-05:00Good article.Good article.NealNelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11578090277801443799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-30028789028894994412010-04-27T08:43:57.653-05:002010-04-27T08:43:57.653-05:00Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!Good stuff! Thanks for sharing!Anibellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12705428386570579843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-18667537134092040512010-04-21T21:36:00.551-05:002010-04-21T21:36:00.551-05:00I need to focus on the same thing. DADI need to focus on the same thing. DADNeal Nelsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-22366471870326249552010-04-13T11:00:50.805-05:002010-04-13T11:00:50.805-05:00I loved hearing him talk as well!I loved hearing him talk as well!Anibellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12705428386570579843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-5732487188829600152010-03-14T17:57:08.097-05:002010-03-14T17:57:08.097-05:00Scott, It is exciting to know that there are autho...Scott, It is exciting to know that there are authors writing about the mission of God as a / the theme in the Bible. I know that my reading recently has definitely revealed this thread to me. I find the Mission of God expressed continually. My quiet time has been much more vibrant as a result.<br /><br />NealAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-20268738712727126132010-02-25T17:08:27.898-06:002010-02-25T17:08:27.898-06:00Well summarized!Well summarized!Anibellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12705428386570579843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-19049055845240456522010-01-23T20:54:58.087-06:002010-01-23T20:54:58.087-06:00I like the way your mind works Scott. We are all ...I like the way your mind works Scott. We are all on an Amazing Race to win the prize.<br />AudreyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8384439010812764020.post-61731955185268164132010-01-18T13:49:07.190-06:002010-01-18T13:49:07.190-06:00Good thoughts, both of you. Dtbubba, you have som...Good thoughts, both of you. Dtbubba, you have some good insights to the patterns we see throughout Scripture. I'll have to think about how those might translate into contemporary times.<br /><br />One thought I have is this, do we have to be gifted to be a part of public worship? I will concede the point that not everyone ought to be the main leader of worship, but I wonder what it might look like for a church to allow for more public expression in worship so that the gifts, passions, and thoughts of the body might be more a blessing to the body.<br /><br />Bringing this story to CCCH, I love that we ask lots of different people to to communion meditation and I celebrate the gifts and ideas people bring. I even like some of the goofy things people have done because it shows how much of themselves they have put into it.<br /><br />On January 3rd I was able to preach at my home church. At the end of the sermon and communion, there was an open mic time for people to respond. One lady responded to the sermon and her words were probably way better than my sermon - which was totally cool.<br /><br />I don't really have any answers to anything, which probably means I shouldn't open my mouth in the first place. But this kind of dialogue really helps me think through a lot of stuff.<br /><br />In the end, maybe this is a better way to say it: the challenge for the church leader is to create space for the unique and varied gifts of the body to be expressed in important and significant ways through corporate worship as well as in other aspects of corporate life. <br /><br />Thoughts on the last comment, anyone?<br /><br />(As a side note, if anyone is ever interested in reading someone absolutely going off against the church on this topic, see Neil Cole's Organic Church. He definitely goes the to extreme.)The Missional Musenoreply@blogger.com